Friends
It is needless to re-invent Rabindra, Sharat ,Bankim & other Hindu writers and discuss about their attitude about then poor muslims. History is history none can deny or decry or suppress it for long. All these stawarts were full of hatred towards muslims as at the back in their mind they believd that muslims were marauders from alien land and destroyed their hindu land. This is the way the hindus of the past annihilated,driven out the Buddists from th soil in totality. It is nothing paganism that creates the whole problem. Rationilty of the pagans is missing and animality is very much in existence and that is being surfaced time to time by the acitivities of the Peacefull die hard BJP/RSS/Shib Sena in S E C U L A R Indi ??????????.
If you analyze the writings of the present day writers of WB as well as Bollywood pictrures you will find that muslims are portrayed as servants, terrorist,goons, mastans,mafias and vile people. In many of the serial of WB TV Channels muslims are portrayed as mentioned above.
Even in Dance Bangla Dance the small inncent comperes Oritro/Tathoi utters jokes about Bangladesh as written in the script by the elders. I called the authority to protests this unethical nuosance act of the Ghoti Bangalees but could not succeed.
So in agreement with Ayubi I would like to reiterate that "Tel 0 Jol jemon meshena" temni "Muslims and Hindus can never be one soul". They can be friends on equal term(this is missing in our case) not dialogues as uttered by the erudite(?) elites of epar opar Bangla.
Faruque Alamgir
Salahuddin Ayubi <s_ayubi786@yahoo.com> wrote: In one of todays posting theere is a post that says tht Two nation theory died after the creation of bangladesh. How silly of him , Muslims are Mulims and Hindus ar Hindus and the twain shall never meet..
Salahuddin Ayubi
"Md. Mostafa Kamal" <mmk3k@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Mr. Salahuddin,
Thank you.
Yes Rabindra did not represent the Bengali Muslims in his literature indeed. Moreover Rabindra, Sharat Chandra & other Hindu writers did not call the Muslims or address them as Bengali. For an example one of the writing of Sharat Chandra he has mentioned "we Bengalies will play with the Muslims". The Muslims are also Bengalies which the Hindu writers of that period never agreed & they simply deny it. Even at the present this matter still goes. It is clear whom ever specially the Muslim Bengalies abstain from (POWTTOLIK) statue cultures, mongol Lamp(prodip), tilak, shidur etc will not be called Bengali. Simply only the Hindus & their religious cultures will be called Bengali & Bengali culture. But after partition of 1947 has made us the Muslim's of x-East Pakistan & today's Bangladesh as Bengali stronger than before. Even today in WB Muslims are not called Bengalies there. Because the most of the WB's Hindus are extremely communal minded.
Thank You All,
Md. Mostafa Kamal.
Salahuddin Ayubi <s_ayubi786@yahoo.com> wrote:
It is immaterial whether he was a Brammo or a pirali Brahmin. The main thing was that he represented only the caste hindu population of Bengal and none else. He surely did not represent Bengali Muslims in his writing. As far as he was concerned Muslims did not exist in bengal. I wonder as to how such a poet be the comopser of my national anthem.
Salahuddin Ayubi
Musfique Prodhan <chena_kew@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mr Aslam/Azad
my conclusion about your statement was derived from your comment below.
" Poet Rabindranath Tagore was not a Brahmo, but a Pirali Brahmin."
However, my point is not to drag this debate to endless loope. Definitely Robindronath's association with Pirali Brahmin is something unheard. Thanks for sharing something unknown to most of us.
Musfique.
AbdurRahim Azad <Arahim.azad@gmail.com> wrote:
Mr. Prodhan
I just wanted to mention that Rabindranath claimed himself to be a Pirali Brahmin.
This can be seen in his own hadwriting in the archive of Nobel Foundation
at Stockholm, Sweden. As far as I know, Rabindranath was a monotheist.
call him Brahmo or call him Pirali Brahmin. Rabindranath belived in
one supreme devine creator, he was not an athiest. You are right,
he was a religious person.
My mention of Tagores being Pirali Brahmin is not a denial as you have
aspered but on a point of order as I have mentioned earlier.
Rabindranath's Pirali Brahmin identity is relatively unknown.
Thanks
Syed Aslam
.
On 4/29/08, Musfique Prodhan <chena_kew@yahoo.com> wrote: Mr Azad
unfortunately your valiant denial of Robindronath's Bramha identity doesnot bear any weight. The URL below shows confusing religious indentification of Robindronath as both Brahmo and Pirali Brahmin.
However, it was never my intention to disrespect Robindronath. So far it has been proved that whether Bramho or Pirali Brahmin, he was a religious person. One purpose of my writeup about Robindronath is to rebutt those, who is trying tooth and nail to portray him as a secular person, based on hollow platform. Patting a fellow writer of Muslim decent on the back, or following a reformed version of Hinduisim, doesnot conform with the definition of "secularism".
My statment above can be backed by the comfort of your home, by just searching in the net. Which is much convinient than driving 3 hours to the nearby University.
It was never Robindronath's fault nor did he advised his fans to be radicaly fanatic. It was our own over enthusiastic intellectuals who propagate Robindronath as someone he was not. Specialy when all the historic fact contradicts the fanatics version of Robindronath.
Thanks for sharing Dr Nehal Karim's version of the national anthem issue. Unfotunately there are so many versions available on our national issues that, the truth seems to be unfound. If Dr Nehal's version bears the truth, then Prof Ahmed Sharif deserve way much more honor than we showed him. Unfortunately no recognition was heard to be offered to Prof Sharif for such great contribution. Rather we see a different approach from Prof Sharif on Robindronath
" Even the radical maverick, brave and honest Professor Ahmed Sharif (my guru for various reasons, especially his integrity, courage and scholarship) would privately tell us: "Ei Rabi Thakurer 'tumi' ta ke re bapu, eta to bujhlam na." He was also critical of Tagore's opposition to the Dhaka University proposal and his feudal, anti-people, pro-British stand most of the time up to his seventies. TAJ HASMI: TAGORE MANIA:
Perhaps Prof Ahmed Sharif accepted the historical facts unlike the other "fanatic" Robindro fans.
It would be unwise rather a narrow minded attitude to consider those as communaly driven, anti liberation identity, who advocates the changing our national anthem. Because Prof Aftab Ahmed, a freedomfighter himself , was the first to propose such in a hostile water. The risk he took, had paid him back with countless propaganda, media terrorism, and finaly he succembed to assasination.
There have been quite a few discussions on this subject before as well, on both sides.
Based on discussion on the National Anthem issue, one need to consider the historial facts and should recognize the individual nature of Bangladeshis on socio-political perspective. Days are bygone, when we were indentified as Indians, or Bangali only. So our policies should be based on reality of the present, not on the past national identity.
The followinf criteria may help to solve the puzzle about our National Anthem.
1. Must be written, composed and sung by a Bangladeshi national: born in the current territory of Bangladesh.
2. The song MUST include the word, Bangladesh in full form.
3. The writer composer and the singer must have a clean past from charge of sedition and treason against Bangladesh.
4. The writer composer and the singer, should be a non partisan entity.
Sincerely
Musfique
PS: same criteria can also be applied to select a national poet as well.
Mr. Mushfique Prodhan
Thanks for enlightening us with your special version of Rabindra analysis.
However, on a point of order, I want to mention few things:
Poet Rabindranath Tagore was not a Brhmo, but a Pirali Brahmin.
Poet Rabindranath Tagore was not a Brahmo, but a Pirali Brahmin.
Pirali Brahmin is any member of a subgroup of Brahmins found throughout West Bengal. Notably, Rabindranath Tagore and the Tagore Family were members of this group. The term "Pirali" historically carried a stigmatized and pejorative connotation by the main stream Hindu Brahmins; its eponym is the Uazir Muhammad Tahir Pir Ali, who served under a governor of Jessore During Muslim rule. Uazir Pir Ali was a Brahmin Hindu who converted to Islam; his actions resulted in the additional conversion of two Brahmins brothers. As a result, orthodox Hindu society shunned the brothers' Hindu relatives (who had not converted), and their descendants became the Pirali — among whom numbered the Tagores This unorthodox background ultimately led Tagores to dispense with many of the customs followed by orthodox Brahmins.
BTW, The first editor of the daily Azad Maulana Mohammad Akram Khan [1905-1947], and a Bangla Translator of Quran [Tafsirul Quran] is said to be a decendent of.Muhammad Tahir Pir Ali.
Dwarkanath Tagore (1794-1846) and founder of the great Tagore family of Jorasanko, Calcutta. was a pioneer of this pirali Pirali Brahman sect. The Pirali Brahmans maintained social connections with the Muslims [eat in a Musalman's house etc.] and were boycotted [Ek ghore] by the main-stream Hindu Brahmins. Pirali Brahmins had no intercourse with the "superior" Brahmin caste. The vedanta philoposhy
of Raja Ram Roy was abandoned by the Tagores in favor of direct contact with the divine similar to that of
Muslim Sufis. This is reflected in many of Poet Rabindranath's Tagore's poems.
The archive of Nobel Foundation at Stockholm, Sweden clearly shows that Poet Rabindranath Tagore
wrote Pirali Brahmin as his religion in the form needed to fill up during the Noble Prize award ceremony [Tagore's hand writing].
Few of Tagore's extended family members had inter-marriages with Muslims, the notable of which was Ms
Sarmila Tagore, who married Nawab of Pataudi.Poet's Jasimuddin's Thakur Barir Anginay (1961) gives a
clear picture of secular environment sorrounding Poet Rabindranath Tagore. Late Professor Abul Fazal's
book on Kazi Nazrul's life tells a story that mentions Poet Tagore's recognisation for Nazrul. In a meeting
where Nazrul was standing on the back row, presiding Rabindranath Tagore invited him on the dias saying Kazi Tumi Amar Dan Pashe Eshe Bosho .....etc.
Rabindranath Tagore's "Sonar Bangla" as the national anthem of Bangladesh
From New Age BD
"
o In 1963, the "Interim East Bengal Government" (in brief- Apurba Sangsad) was formed after the successful movement against the education policy of the then government and this "Apurba Sangsad" was the first organization which propagated very secretly for "Independent Bangladesh". Poet Sufia Kamal and Abdul Aziz Bagmar were the President and Secretary respectively and Dr. Ahmed Sharif was one of the Advisers.
In this connection, Justice Muhammad Habibur Rahman has written that on October 1, 1965, Dr. Ahmed Sharif prepared a secret document for Apurba Sangsad (Asthaee Purba Bangla Sarker - Interim Government of East Bengal) and the document was known as Manifesto of the Sangsad, the title was: Ittihasher Dharay Bangalee (Historical Trends of Bengalees). Here he pointed out the causes and ways for "Independent Bangladesh"; he also suggested ways for socio-economic, political and cultural freedom for the Bengalees.
Sharif proposed the name of the then East Pakistan as "Bangladesh" and chose Rabindranath Tagore's "Sonar Bangla" as the national anthem (Prothom Alo, February 04, 2000.
o Dr. Ahmed Sharif along with Dr. Kudrat-e-Khuda, Dr. Kazi Motahar Hossain, Poet Sufia Kamal, Painter Zainul Abedin, Poet Sikandar Abu Zafar, Prof. Munir Chowdhury, Poet Hasan Hafizur Rahman and others vehemently opposed boycott of Tagore songs in the national media (Dainik Pakistan: 25, 1967)"
Source: Dr. Nehal Karim, professor, Department of Sociology, Dhaka University
A Rahim Azad
4/28/2008
On 4/28/08, Musfique Prodhan <chena_kew@yahoo.com> wrote: Robindronath Tagor: under the light of history
Musfique Prodhan
He is world reknowned poet of Bangla, who was the first Nobel lauerate from undivided Bengal during British India. His expertise on diverse subject matters have earned him the worldwide fame, and placed him as the crownless King of Bangla culture & literature.
Though countless research was conducted on Robindronath, but due to the extreme romantic nature of the Bangalis (of both sides of the border) his personal life, political views and vissions were very loosely and lightly discussed. Such shortcomings might have triggered some criticism from people, who were dismayed by Robindronath's role on then Bengali society. As the time goesby, the radical Robindronath fans are facing more and more criticism by anti Robindronath faction.
The only relation Robindronath had with East Bengal, was due to his Zamindari. Though a lot of his excellent work was inspired by the beauty of E. Bengal's countryside, yet the people was less convincing for him to write about them. He had regreted it though:
" ....That I was doing business called Zamindari, busying myself with personal profit and loss, put me in great shame. From then on, I tried ways on how to rouse their mind, how to enthuse them to take care of themselves.... (Tagore, R, Collected Works, Vol. XIV, p. 378) "
The people of East Bengal during the rule of the British had suffered enormously because of the discriminatory bias by then Hindu Zamindars. Details of such mayhem was portrayed by Mir Mosarraf Hossains's "Jomidar Dorpon", Michael Modhusudan Duttas "Buro Shaliker Ghar e Ro" and numerous other contemporary writers. That include a piece by Robindronath himself. But the urban Robindronath never cared to put any importance on the "Muslim" majority peasants of then E Bengal in his literature.
Though some Bangladeshi Robindronath fans enjoy the pleasure to wronglyfully portray him as the symbol of "secularism", facts say otherwise. He was an ardent devotee for Bramha Samaj, a hindu faction with more mordern approach to Hinduism. The pioneer being Raja Ram Mohan Roy, later scholars like Shami Bibekananda and the whole Tagore dynasty helped to recruit more followers to stablish it as an influential entity. (Prothom-Alo by Sunil Gongopadhdhay).
Such blind allegience towards Robindronath's wrongfully portrayed "secular image" might have confused our poet late Sufia Kamal to compare his songs with worshipping. Such wrong conception might also have encouraged Ms Sufia Kamal to marry her daughter with one Mr Chakrabarti, thus nonconforming with Bangladesh's social culture.
For some "unknown" reason our past and current cultural personalities do posses similar attitude. Therefore, any cultural program organized by the mainstream cultural personality includes songs of Robindronath, as a ritual. Even Dhanmondi lake was named after him as "Robindro Sorobor". Some of the over enthusiastic Robindronath fans even declared that, Bangladesh's liberation was the dream and result of Robindronath. (Robindronath died in 1941: a few years before the partition of India)
History proves quite the contrary, specialy his stauch support for Bongo Bhongo Andolon (1905-1911), oppostion towards stablishing Dhaka Univeristy and communal attitude towards Muslims have made Robindronath less acceptable among the E Bengal majority.
Here are a few notes on Robindronath's own political and social views
" Those Bangladeshis who deny these facts are either die hard fanatics or supporters of United Bengal (as former slaves often suffer from the a perpetual sense of devotion or Bhakti for their former masters – I am NOT making this up, one may check with the vast literature on social-psychology, cultural anthropology and history, especially writings by Ranajit Guha and other "Subaltern" historians.
In view of the above, Tagore's opposition to the Partition of Bengal (1905-11) and the Dhaka University proposal (1914-20) had nothing so "patriotic" about it. He was not at all different from fellow Hindu Zamindar – Bhadralok who preferred to live in the urban comfort of Calcutta to the rural discomfort of East Bengal but by exploiting East Bengali peasants and working classes as landlords, lawyers and moneylenders. They also opposed the Partition and any move to establish a university in Dhaka, which they rightly envisaged, would eventually strip of their undue privileges and advantages as the hegemons of East Bengali masses. Calcutta based Hindu lawyers did not want another High Court in Dhaka, let alone another university to produce East Bengali Muslim graduates to compete in the shrinking job market, legal profession and in the arena of politics. One Fazlul Huq and one Suhrawardy were too much for them to swallow in the 1930s and 1940s.
In Jamalpur and elsewhere in greater Mymensingh, Hindu terrorist Swadeshi volunteers, who took oath at the alter of goddess Kali and sang Bankim's anti-Muslim Bande Mataram, attacked Muslim supporters of the Partition with Ma Kalir Boma (Mother Kali's Bomb). Sumit Sarkar has beautifully narrated these events in his History of the Swadeshi Movement. One should read Nirad Chaudhuri's Autobiography of an Unknown Indian and Abul Mansur Ahmed's Amar Dekha Rajnitir Panchash Bachhar to find out the truth about the communal nature of the Swadeshi Movement
(Taj Hasmi-Muktomona: The Tagor Mania)
Due to either utter ignorance or cheap emotions or lack of knowledge, some of the young student leaders (as claimed by Shahjahan Siraj) during our liberation war have selected "Amar Shonar Bangla" by Robindronath, as our national anthem.
Late Prof Ali Ahsan had claimed that due to the " pressure" by the intellectuals of West Bengal, the exile Bangladeshi Govt had adopted that song as our national anthem. Though that song was written by Robindronath as his support towards the radical Hindu activists of Swadeshi Andolon.
" One should read Nirad Chaudhuri's Autobiography of an Unknown Indian and Abul Mansur Ahmed's Amar Dekha Rajnitir Panchash Bachhar to find out the truth about the communal nature of the Swadeshi Movement. And Kabi Guru Rabindranath was among the ardent supporters of the Swadeshi Movement. He wrote "Amar Sonar Bangla, Ami Tomay Bhalobashi" to inspire the supporters of the Swadeshi Movement. TAJ HASMI: MuktoMona: The Tagore Mania"
So, the demand for changing our national anthem deserves strong consideration.
The people of Bangladesh have already proven themselves as non communical and diverse in nature. Yet influenced by the Dada's accross the border, some of our own intellectuals have been engaged to prove the contrary. And they are no less notorious than any radicals, when criticism surfaces against Robindronath and West Bengal culture. The POP singer Maqsud was threatened to the fullest extent, because of his "sin" to sing a Tagore song with mordern musical intruments. And the pro Robindronath and W. Bengals made it a regular habbit of portraying anyone as "Communal" who dares to criticize Robi Babu or Dadas.
True that, due to our landscape and then Govt's biased policy, we once were very behind in education compared to our neighbors. But after the stablishment of an independant Bangladesh, things have dramaticaly changed from the past. And with the scientific and techonological development, it is much easier to access facts than any other time.
If some of us still pursue the path of radicalism on Robindro Prem, then I must feel pity for them for their ignorance and amnesia.
** A detail writeup about Robindronath and the social movements can be found in the following URL.
Sincerely
Musfique.
Mr. F. Alamgir,
As per my knowledge dictates, I never read Robindranath's name as Robi Babu (robi babu). Certainly, there is racial connotation here. Besides, you wrote it in small letter. Moreover, you wrote, "..........sing Bangla songs including robi babu." What did you want to mean by the word 'including'? Doesn't the general definition of bangla songs cover Rabindranath's songs? Did you want to mean that though he is not of us, some of us like his songs? ( It is hard for me to believe that you sing his songs. If it is I'll be surprised even in dream.) Yes, after reading your second point between the lines, it is seemed to me that your intention was to insult Robindranath & to alienate him from us.
Your first point: Pakistani people are not & were never butchers. They are like us, our fellow human beings. They are just victims. You may call their rulers butchers. One of my relatives from Sindh said pointing '71, '' Tum log bach gaya, hum log fach gaya." Besides, I think the position of our language is much better than Urdu in world stage. Our literature is also far richer than that of Urdu. Moreover Urdu & Hindi are identical languages. There is no radical difference between them.
Third point: If they are in such position as you told (baseless), we should be compassionate to them. We should increase our interactions to help them keeping their identity intact. It is true that they are victim of cultural aggression & less developed comparing other states due to unfriendly attitude of Central Govt. ( To understand this point, you are suggested to read substructure & superstructure of Marx.)
Regards,
Rajon.
Ayubi Bhai
The Ghatis are seriously suffering rom inferiority for many reasons.
Fristly. we have made our Matri Bhasha Bangla on equal standing of urdu even in the peak time of butcher pakis rule.Secondly, we talk in Bangla, dream in Bangla,write poetry in Bangla and sing Bangla songs including robi babu.
On the otherhand they(WB) are no where nearer to us.
Their Bangla language has no status standing in the melle of Hindi,Tamil,telegu, malaylam,Marathi, Paunjabi and of course English.
If a Ghati Bangalee have to outshine the onslaught of the non begalee aces then he will have to acquire expertise mostly in hindi to become champ or runners up( Sa re ga ma pa/Dance bangla dance participants sang 90% hindi songs to prove that they are hindi loving hindustani as well the stupid duffer Mir(Jafar) spoke mostly hindu to keep him in the race of ace presenters.
These ghotis share a cup of tea amonst ten friends( true !!!!!!!!!! ). You will not believe that they have packets one rosgolla for take away. Just one which the middle class back here cannot think like that laughing stock.
What the Bangalees in WB are doing they are serving in the offices/shops/ industries of 99% owned by non WB peopleas clerks/bara babu. Blighters take panta but give dhekur asif taken Kachchi(dream for them). Mainly they are mean in their thinking and attitude and cannot be compared with Bangladesh's magnanimity.
It is because of some Shoe Jibis, Shoe Jons,epar banga/opar bangla oikkya jote(cr dot) who have made our glorious nation subjugative to the ghatis.
Can there be any friendship which is not based on equal standong ? To me no way ? ? ?Faruque Alamgir
Salahuddin Ayubi <s_ayubi786@yahoo.com> wrote:
Faruq Bhai,
In the past sixty years i.e after the second banga bhanga, we the discarded humiliate so called bangals have excelled the ghatis in all sectors and they do not like it, hence is the criticism of our pronounciation and other insignificat things. They are desperate to prove that they are superior to the so called banglas, which of course they are not. If they were then they would not indulge in such trifling and stupid subjects.
Sir Ayubi
You are absolutely right as I also hold the opinion as of you.
We do not need any one way BAL'er friendship train" fake moitree". Mukti Judhdha ki ei jonno korechilam jey amora sob kichu(?????) ujar korey dibo BAL 0 sharmeo jibi der ruti rujir utsha Indiar jonno ??????????????????????????
Sob kichu one way traffic. Padma'r pani ,tin bigha,Beru Bari, Tal Potty, amader ponnya BAL er bondhur deshey galey koto rokom terrif, amaar deshey indir maal ashley ekdom heree, heree, ekdom herre.
While discussing on Cable TV issue in Indian own(die hard indian) one caller informed viewers that few days back he met the popular presenter MIR![]()
of Mir Akkel (decendent of Mir Jafar) who made fun out of our Bangla phonetics and opined it as obstacle for Bangladeshi channels not being shown( truth is WB do not allow) in WB.
The caller said that he felt very insulted and humiliated at the stupid and idiotic comments by the clown mirrrrrrrrrrr![]()
. I thinkthat millions and millions proud citizen of Bangladesh will join the caller to spit on the face of the BEAKKEL MIR Jafor.
Faruque Alamgir
Salahuddin Ayubi <s_ayubi786@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear mr. Alamgir,
Did we really need the so called moitri express so badly that we were even prepared to go through the ignomity of passing through a cage? Was it that essential for the country?
Friends and Compeers
It is the Sufol of the Six Horse Power. Being citizens of independent and sovereign nation created by ocean of blood we have to go thru iron cage.
What a slur on the blood of the Martyrs???? Shame on the people who has forced us to be subservient to the whims of the great muscle friend indi. Shala amora ekta Bishaw Behaoa jaat chara ar kichu na.
Faruque Alamgir
Salahuddin Ayubi <s_ayubi786@yahoo.com> wrote:
I wonder who is it going to benefit, this so called
Moitri express. ar amra nake khat diye eta grohon
korlam i ba keno. eta chara ki amader cholto na?
Salahuddin Ayubi
--- Musfique Prodhan <
chena_kew@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear all
>
> here is an analysis of the current condition and
> future prospect of Dhaka-Kolkata-
Dhaka Moitri
> Express.
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.dailynayadiganta.com/fullnews.asp?News_ID=78405&sec=4
>
>
> Musfique
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with
> Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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